SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Given the fact that it seems like Hollywood churns out nothing but sequels, you would think that, by now, the industry would have perfected the genre. Some sequels are pretty good, but many believe the perfect sequel came out 50 years ago this month.
(SOUNDBITE OF NINO ROTA'S "THE GODFATHER WALTZ")
DETROW: Of course, we are talking about Francis Ford Coppola's "Godfather II." Not only considered the greatest sequel of all time, it's also considered one of the greatest movies of all time. So why does "Godfather II" work when so many other sequels fall short? NPR producer Marc Rivers, who some might say is obsessed with movies, has been thinking a lot about that. Hey, Marc.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott. Good to be with you.
DETROW: This is like a tricky question to ask, but Marc, tell me why "Godfather II" is such a good movie (laughter).
RIVERS: Yeah. You know, like...
DETROW: Four hours later.
RIVERS: ...At this point, I feel like trying to talk about that in brief is, like, trying to talk about, like, why is a Beethoven symphony good, right?
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: Like, where - it's like, where do you start, and where do you end up, right? But I think it just - it touches every aspect of you that you want art to touch, right? Like, it thrills you, you know? It moves you. It transports you to another place, you know? It's a wonderful evocation of, like, an early 20th-century New York, right? It has all these rich historical and cultural resonances that, you know, legion of scholars have written essays on. But the same time, when you're watching the movie and, you know, Al Pacino as Michael Corleone gives his brother, Fredo, that kiss of death...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GODFATHER PART II")
AL PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) There's a plane waiting for us to take us to Miami in an hour, all right? Don't make a big thing about it.
(SOUNDBITE OF KISS)
PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) I know it was you, Fredo. You broke my heart. You broke my heart.
RIVERS: ...Or the dissolution of his marriage with Kay and - played by Diane Keaton - you're watching those great scenes, you're just thinking, like, damn, that's just a good movie.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GODFATHER PART II")
DIANE KEATON: (As Kay) Oh, Michael. Michael, you are blind. It wasn't a miscarriage. It was an abortion. An abortion, Michael - just like our marriage is an abortion.
DETROW: I feel like the thing that it does that, like, maybe is a through line for good sequels, is it takes - now, the original "Godfather" is already so good and so complex, but it takes that world and just zooms out and zooms out and zooms out, and you learn so much more.
RIVERS: It expands upon the world. It deepens the world. I think one of the things that a lot of sequels do - or a lot of bad sequels - even a lot of, like, decent sequels do - is they look at their movies kind of like products to kind of be recycled or, even more cynically, kind of like a roller coaster to take again...
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...You know? 'Cause you liked it the first time. You'll obviously love it if you just take it again. And Coppola - who is not a product maker, but he's an artist - you know, I think he takes what was kind of subtext in the first "Godfather" about this kind of, like, metaphor for the kind of rot of the American dream and the kind of corruption of kind of the American capitalist system - he takes the subtext, and he makes it text. He takes the kind of moral rot of Michael Corleone - his arc - and he takes that, and he kind of externalizes it and expands it outward and gives it global, you know, like, not just national but global ramifications, and he turns it into this real epic of Americana.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GODFATHER PART II")
PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) I enlisted in the Marines.
ROBERT DUVALL: (As Tom Hagen) Mikey, why? Why didn't you come to us?
PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) What do you mean?
DUVALL: (As Tom Hagen) I mean, Pop had to pull a lot of strings to get you a deferment.
PACINO: (As Michael Corleone) I didn't ask for it. I didn't ask for a deferment. I didn't want it.
JAMES CAAN: (As Sonny Corleone) Oh yeah? What's wrong?
DUVALL: (As Tom Hagen) Come on. Come on. Knock it off. Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Come on. Hey.
ABE VIGODA: (As Tessio) Come on, Sonny.
CAAN: (As Sonny Corleone) Punk.
VIGODA: (As Tessio) Listen. Sonny sit.
CAAN: (As Sonny Corleone) No. No.
VIGODA: (As Tessio) Go on, sit. Sit down.
DETROW: So much of the conversation in Hollywood these days is about IP - intellectual property - kind of remaking what you have already.
RIVERS: Or that dreaded C-word - content.
DETROW: Yeah. Yeah. So right now, just in the past month, we have seen "Gladiator II," "Moana 2" and a prequel to "The Lion King," which is out today, "Mufasa: The Lion King."
RIVERS: In case you didn't know who I was talking about, you know, we've got to add that "Lion King," you know?
DETROW: I think I know who - as opposed to the other Mufasa from Disney.
RIVERS: Right. Right. Right.
DETROW: The criticism - the line - it's just like everybody seems to have run out of ideas - is that what's going on? Is it just people trying to make money based on stuff that you already have in your head already? It seems like a real increase in sequels.
RIVERS: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. You know, you think back to the year of Barbenheimer (ph) - you know, last year - where the success of these two movies that were not sequels - by and large, these were original works from distinctive artists, and people thought, well, was their success a sign of, well, we want less sequels, you know? We want more original ideas? And if we just - from the box office, that was not the case. If you look at the Top 10 highest-grossing movies of 2024, only one of those movies is not a sequel. Could you guess what movie that is?
DETROW: Is that "Wicked"?
RIVERS: It is indeed "Wicked."
DETROW: Which is, of course...
RIVERS: "Defying Gravity" and everything.
DETROW: But based on...
RIVERS: But still based on...
DETROW: It's based on something that's been out there for 20 years, yeah.
RIVERS: ...a very popular Broadway show.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: So it's not that Hollywood has run out of ideas. I think that Hollywood is just - it is not putting its weight behind those original ideas.
DETROW: Lightning round - I've got my list here. What are some of your favorite sequels?
RIVERS: My picks - some of my favorite sequels are pretty - I think might be pretty expected. But "The Bourne Supremacy"...
DETROW: OK.
RIVERS: ...Which turned 20 years old this year and kind of influenced the next, I think, 10 years of films, from 2004 to 2014.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: If you look at the first movie, "The Bourne Identity," you know, the central question of that movie was - who am I? - right? This guy doesn't have no idea who he is, and all the journey is about finding out who this guy is. In the second movie, the question kind of veers from a kind of existential question to a moral question, where it's like - what have I done? And have - the things that I've done - do that dictate whether I'm a good or bad person?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE BOURNE SUPREMACY")
MATT DAMON: (As Jason Bourne) And what do you want with me?
JOAN ALLEN: (As Pamela Landy) Berlin. Have you forgotten what happened in Berlin? You killed two people, Bourne. (Echoing) You killed two people, Bourne.
RIVERS: That's what "The Supremacy" (ph) is all about. And then that movie is such a stylistic achievement. If you look at action movies before and after "Bourne Supremacy," you can see a difference. Like...
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...The action is more propulsive. You can kind of, like, feel every body blow and feel every car crash in your chest.
DETROW: Can I tell you some of mine?
RIVERS: Please do.
DETROW: Obviously, "The Empire Strikes Back"...
RIVERS: Classic.
DETROW: "Aliens" - those two are always on the list. I would also add "Terminator 2," "The Dark Knight" and "Star Trek: Wrath Of Khan" (ph).
RIVERS: So many. "Wrath Of Khan," I think, just got entered into the National Film Registry this week.
DETROW: It's so good. And the first "Star Trek" movie was like - eh, it was OK.
RIVERS: And these are all examples of movies that are doing something different from their predecessor. Like, "Terminator 1" (ph) - that was more - that was almost, like, a back-door horror movie...
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...Right? Like, the Terminator was, like, a slasher villain.
DETROW: And that's all he does.
RIVERS: That's all he does. In "Terminator 2," they make him the protagonist, and it becomes more of kind of an action, where he has to defend young John Connor against this more advanced robot, right?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TERMINATOR 2")
EDWARD FURLONG: (As John Connor) How long do you live - I mean, last - whatever?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: (As Terminator) A hundred and twenty years with my existing power cell.
FURLONG: (As John Connor) Can you learn stuff that you haven't been programmed with so you can be, you know, more human and not such a dork all the time?
RIVERS: "Aliens" in comparison to "Alien" - "Alien" was this, like, haunted-house-in-space kind of thriller, right? And James Cameron, also director of "Terminator 2" - James Cameron says, let's just take that. Let's throw that away - not throw it away, but let's revamp it, and let's make it, instead, this kind of action, military, you know, almost, like, Vietnam allegory-type thriller, you know? It's - you can appreciate "Aliens" and "Alien" as two very distinctive achievements.
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: It's not a recycling. It's not a rehash. They're different experiences.
DETROW: That's Marc Rivers, a producer for ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, who sometimes comes in and talks to us about movies. Thanks, Marc.
RIVERS: Thanks, Scott.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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