ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
The movie "It Ends With Us" tells the story of a complicated romance between two characters, played by Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. He also directed the film. New allegations suggest that what happened behind the scenes was as dramatic as a Hollywood movie. The New York Times obtained a complaint where lively accuses Baldoni of sexual harassment and retaliation. And the filing includes excerpts from thousands of pages of text messages and emails documenting what the Times calls a smear machine designed to bury Lively. An attorney for Baldoni and the film studio called Lively's claims false and outrageous. Megan Twohey is an investigative journalist for the New York Times who worked on this story. Welcome.
MEGAN TWOHEY: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
SHAPIRO: So you read these text messages and emails that Blake Lively's team obtained through a subpoena. What do they show? Paint the picture for us.
TWOHEY: So it's so remarkable to be able to go behind the scenes and see what these people were discussing in real time as they put into motion a plan that she describes as retaliation for complaining during the filming of what she says was sexual harassment and other misconduct by Baldoni, the director, and also Jamey Heath, the lead producer of the film.
And at the time that she complained during the filming, they had agreed to put in place a full-time intimacy coordinator, bring in an outside producer and put in place other safeguards that she was seeking. They also agreed at the time that they would not retaliate against her for raising these concerns and seeking the protections. But as the release of the movie was approaching, the men became increasingly worried that somehow her allegations were going to become public and taint them. And so they retained this crisis PR manager, a woman named Melissa Nathan. And the goal of the campaign that they set in motion was to harm Miss Lively's reputation instead.
SHAPIRO: Melissa Nathan is such an interesting character in this narrative. She is a PR expert who has also represented clients including Johnny Depp and the rappers Drake and Travis Scott. Tell us about her role in what Blake Lively alleges went down.
TWOHEY: Yeah. So, you know, Melissa Nathan came on board, and she presented the men with an initial planning document in which she sort of spelled out talking points that they could use with reporters should anything start to bubble up. And Mr. Baldoni actually felt like that wasn't enough, and he was explicit about wanting more. And so she, in turn, brought in another person, and collectively, they put in motion a strategy that had involved not just kind of interfacing with the traditional press, you know, seeking to kind of get favorable coverage of him and negative coverage of her but to actually - what appears to be to manipulate the internet, to manipulate social media. And they talk about starting threads online and doing other things to basically shift the narrative and what people were consuming on the internet.
SHAPIRO: There is one exchange where - and I am paraphrasing here - Baldoni says, I need you to be more aggressive. And she says, well, I can't put everything in writing that we're going to do 'cause imagine how that would look.
TWOHEY: Yes. In the beginning, a publicist who had been working with Justin Baldoni wrote to Melissa Nathan and said, you know, he wants to feel like she can be buried. And Melissa Nathan responded, you know, we can bury anyone. I can bury anyone. And...
SHAPIRO: How has she responded to your reporting?
TWOHEY: So it's important to note that we sought comment from everybody who was named in this legal complaint that she has filed. And they haven't spoken to the underlying allegations of misconduct that she made during the shooting of the film, but they have denied that they engaged in any sort of retaliation or smear campaign and have actually said that they were just responding to negative information that she was planting and spreading. But she denies that she did anything or that she or any of her representatives did anything along those lines, and they haven't produced any evidence of that.
SHAPIRO: And you note that Baldoni received an award just this month for being an ally to women.
TWOHEY: It's important to know that Justin Baldoni and, to some extent, his - you know, the producer of this film, the lead producer, Jamey Heath, have, in recent years, kind of gone to great lengths to present themselves as allies to women in the #MeToo era. And so, you know, there was - prior to all of this coming out, there was so much evidence that the smear campaign had actually done real damage to Miss Lively, that she had suffered the biggest hit to her reputation. Like, the online conversation about her had undergone, like, a drastic transformation as this campaign was put in motion.
And, you know, he, by many measures, basically escaped without any harm to his own reputation. And I think that the award that he won was a classic example of that. Now, obviously, the tide is shifting. And, you know, since we published our story on Saturday, he has been released from the talent agency, WME, that represented him.
SHAPIRO: Big picture, this is about much more than just a dispute between Hollywood stars. Hollywood began its #MeToo reckoning back in 2017. What do you think this episode says about the state of the industry today?
TWOHEY: I think that, you know, this story actually shines a light on this new playbook that has emerged to basically manipulate public opinion and public perceptions of, in this case, a Hollywood star. But I think that it really raises questions about, you know, to what extent these kind of tactics are being used for other public figures to influence the way that we view a variety of things.
I think that we're really just scratching the surface here. There have long been ways to manipulate or to try to influence the way that people view Hollywood stars - you know, gossip columns, strategic interviews. But what was so remarkable here was it was a very largely undetectable campaign that was waged to manipulate social media and other aspects of the information that people are consuming and participating in online. And since we published the story and since her complaint was filed, you know, so many people have come out and said, oh, my goodness. I was actually influenced by this campaign, and I'm so outraged to realize what had happened.
SHAPIRO: And it's not just the mechanics of how this machine operates but also that it sprang from an allegation of sexual harassment and is entirely grounded in a gender imbalance on set, Blake Lively alleges.
TWOHEY: Yes, that's exactly right. And she told me, like, listen. This was actually not the worst that I have experienced in Hollywood. I've actually experienced far worse misconduct. You know, I spoke up because I wanted to address it, and I thought that I had, and I never had any intentions of discussing this or going public with my accusations. And so to watch what happened next and to experience what she now is alleging was this complete campaign of retaliation felt, in many ways, much more sinister than the underlying misconduct.
And, you know, it was really interesting to watch in these messages, like, Melissa Nathan, the person who led this campaign, was messaging with another one of the publicists. And they were kind of remarking in their success and how much the conversation was shifting online and how much backlash there was to Blake Lively in the midst of all of this. And she said, you know, it's remarkable because it shows that people really want to hate on women. And I think that that was one of those moments where it really felt like there was yet another sort of playbook to harm people who come forward with allegations of misconduct.
SHAPIRO: That's Megan Twohey, investigative journalist for the New York Times. Thank you.
TWOHEY: Thank you for having me.
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